Agenda and minutes

www.swansea.gov.uk/disclosuresofinterests

Paul Lloyd declared a personal interest.

No declarations were made.

Questions must be submitted in writing, no later than noon on the working day prior to the meeting.  Questions must relate to items on the agenda.  Questions will be dealt with in a 10-minute period.

The following questions were received from members of the public:

 

QUESTION 1:

 

In the 2011 Census, Swansea had the lowest proportion of short journeys made by public transport in the whole of the UK. We have a bus network that does little more than take people to a shopping mall that has increasingly few shops, which less and less want to go to. It costs £2 to park in the city centre all day yet costs £5 for 1 person to go there by bus. It costs £4 to park in Mumbles for 3 hrs, yet costs £5 for 1 person to go there by bus.

 

Most of the city does not have direct bus services to the train station or the Liberty Stadium on match days. We need direct bus services that link different parts of the city. We need to move away from the idea that all buses must go to the Quadrant.

 

Every year since 1978, the Netherlands has carried out a nation travel survey. Citizens are asked to record each journey they take, and this information is used to help ensure viable alternatives to travelling by car are provided.

 

Rather than focusing on the experience of bus users, the Council should switch its focus to the vast majority who are not bus users, and determine what changes are required for more people to choose public transport. We need the Council to conduct a study to assess what services residents actually need, and to commit to providing competitive alternatives to car travel, whilst setting out targets to increase the number of people using buses (and active travel) and targets to reduce the number of car journeys on our roads.

 

RESPONSE -

 

Cabinet Member:

“Bus services into city centre run on a commercial basis.  They are not there just to take people into the shops.  They are also used for getting to work etc. 

 

The comparison of parking charges is a bit unfair as the prices quoted are because of offers on at the moment with car parking.  This is a temporary measure to aid recovery.  It is the same for the offer in Mumbles; it is a temporary measure.  Therefore, it is not a true comparison to compare with bus journeys.

 

Buses to the Liberty Stadium – bus companies run buses predominantly where demand is as they are a commercial operation.

 

With regards the nationwide survey carried out in the Netherlands, I am not saying this is something we cannot or should not do.  The current journeys carried out would give us a road map of the type of journeys that people want to make.    

 

Focussing on bus users, we have probably got the most funding of any local authority in Wales, to improve and increase our active travel routes throughout and across Swansea for that very purpose. We need to make a modal shift from total reliance on cars into other forms of transport – active travel and bus services are included in that.  It is something we intend to do despite opposition in some quarters.  It will future proof us.  In order to get people out of cars we need to find the alternative to that.

 

Eighty percent of bus services in Swansea are run by commercial companies.  We as an Authority have continued to maintain a subsidy for bus services to subsidise routes that are not viable on a commercial basis.”

 

Managing Director, First Cymru:

“The cost in the illustration is not correct.  Many incentives are provided.  This is the worst case scenario. 

 

Many services go across the City.  For example, Service 25 Blaen Y Maes – City, stops at the train station and the Kingsway.  Some stops can get congested so we cannot for example, run all buses through the train station. 

 

It would be interesting to understand the concern more from the person who asked the question for specifics about where they are travelling from. 

 

In terms of commuters, we carry a lot of retail workers as well as people in the caring industry.  One main service is from Singleton Hospital to Morriston Hospital.  There are a number of services that do not directly go into the Quadrant for shopping purposes.

 

We have very sophisticated software that shows the use of bus stops across the City.  Happy to share with the working group more information about where people are travelling in the City, which may help you on that position.

 

Swansea is one of the most congested cities I have seen in Wales.  Given the Welsh Government’s agenda on climate change, we do all need to take responsibility for trying to move people into public transport. 

 

The one challenge we have as an industry, is that it has diminished.  The number of people who are now travelling by bus has reduced dramatically.  Every decade we see a diminishing market, particularly amongst the younger generation many of whom have their own vehicles.

 

To deal with the climate change agenda a modal shift is required.  We do all we can to contribute by improving our vehicles, getting the most efficient vehicles and using technology on our vehicles to improve the climate agenda, but there is a huge risk in Wales as we haven’t had investment like other places.  We need to move forward more progressively in my opinion.”   

 

Head of Highways and Transportation: 

“There is a lot of ongoing work as an Authority and regionally looking at the Metro with Welsh Government and Transport for Wales, and there is a strong commitment in terms of modal shift to high quality public transport.  There is a lot of development going on to see how we can get proper integration between modes of transport, ticketing etc. 

 

We work with First Cymru to look at challenges on the network on a regular basis. 

 

In terms of active travel, the Authority has got an extremely strong commitment.  It is important that everyone gets behind that sort of move.  For example, the Pentre Road Bridge and Gowerton, we are trying to provide a safe place for everyone to use but have had resistance to this.  We need to change hearts and minds to get support behind schemes.” 

 

 

QUESTION 2: (this question was raised by 4 members of the public)

 

Re Bishopston Bus Service.  No14: Pennard to Swansea

 

This is our ONLY bus with direct link to Swansea.

 

It is important that it is regular and if late it does not miss coming through Bishopston and Murton. (I was waiting in Bishopston recently No bus appeared, but my friend was able to pick the bus up on the Mayals which was on time.  Obviously driver decided NOT to take in the Bishopston loop).

 

We should have an hourly service which takes in the hospital on all journeys, is reliable and is as punctual as possible.

 

RESPONSE –

 

Managing Director, First Cymru:

“We have had a lot of feedback on this route.  The basics that should be expected are that it should be on time and would not be expected to miss bits of routes out.  Be interesting to have the full details on this question (regarding the bus missing out Bishopston) to fully investigate this concern. 

 

It is one of the services that is not covering its costs of drivers’ time let alone cost of vehicle, fuel and maintenance.  That is not even looking at the potential for profit.  We either need to look at increasing patronage of the vehicle or look at how we can offer this service in a different way.  There are many examples of us being innovative.  We would like to look at this service in a little more detail and look at whether the service bus in its current guise is the best solution.  We are committed to work with the Local Authority to look at alternative solutions to that particular proposition and see if we can improve the offering for the customer that meets the demand and cost implications to the company.”

 

Working Group Convener:

“Happy to meet with First Cymru about this outside of the meeting.”

 

Cabinet Member:

“This is a commercial route so it is not directly to do with us but we will try to meet with First Cymru and try to find a way forward.”

 

Councillor for Pennard:

“If there are any meetings about Number 14 can I be included.” 

 

“Many people are giving up using the bus because the timetable is confusing.  So whatever we use needs to be regular.” 

 

Managing Director, First Cymru:

“We are currently carrying about 130 passengers per day on this service.  Over the last 18 months the service has not been regular due to Covid. 

 

We are determined we will improve communication to customers when we come out of this.  Growing customer numbers on all our services is important to me.” 

 

 

Invited to attend:

 

·         Jane Reakes-Davies, Managing Director of First Cymru Buses

·         Owen Williams, Commercial Director of First Cymru Buses

Jane Reakes-Davies, Managing Director of First Cymru presented an overview of the company to the Working Group.

Invited to attend:

 

·         Christopher Lay, Chairman of Cardiff Bus

·         Gavin Hill-John, Vice Chairman of Cardiff Bus

Councillor Lay, Chairman and Councillor Hill-John, Vice Chairman presented an overview of Cardiff Bus to the Working Group including Who they are, How it works, challenges, benefits and the future.

Invited to attend:

 

·         Mark Thomas, Cabinet Member - Environment Enhancement & Infrastructure Management

·         Martin Nicholls, Director of Place

·         Stuart Davies, Head of Highways and Transportation

·         Cath Swain, Integrated Transport Unit Manager

Mark Thomas, Cabinet Member for Environment Enhancement and Infrastructure Management, Stuart Davies, Head of Highways and Transportation and Cath Swain, Integrated Transport Unit Manager attended for this item.  The Cabinet Member confirmed that the Local Authority is able to consider taking on a route through a subsidised method if a commercial operator is unable to.  The Local Authority also supports community transport through subsidised methods.  The Cabinet Member confirmed that currently the Local Authority is unable to run its own bus services.    

Councillors are asked to discuss conclusions arising from this session for inclusion in the Convener’s letter to the Cabinet Member, or, if appropriate, a report to Cabinet:

 

a.    What do you want to say about this issue to the Cabinet Member (what are your conclusions arising from this session?)

b.    Do you have any recommendations for the Cabinet Member arising from this session?

c.    Are there any further issues you wish to highlight to the Scrutiny Programme Committee arising from this session?

 

Members of the Working Group raised a number of questions that First Cymru, Cardiff Bus, the Cabinet Member and officers responded too.

 

The following main issues were discussed:

 

·         Members stated the importance of getting a regular bus service to all areas to tackle residents’ isolation. 

·         Members felt funding for active travel has been used to make it easier for people to cycle or walk, but not everyone is able to do this and that accessibility has to be the main point, for the elderly etc.

·         Members felt strongly that buses are an important service and that if we are going to have a modal change, public transport has to be the backbone of what we are going to do.

·         Members felt that more dialogue is needed between councillors and bus companies, particularly First Cymru, to discuss where some changes can be made for the benefit of residents of Swansea and help bus companies to increase passenger numbers. 

·         Members also felt that there is a need to be asking why people are not catching buses and why numbers are diminishing and equally and importantly there is a need to listen to local knowledge.  Representative of First Cymru confirmed she is keen to talk to relevant councillors and officers about some services, particularly Service 14 and 29 and about growing patronage.    

·         Chairman of Cardiff Bus stated that we need to publicise to our customers what we are doing right with public transport in Swansea, for example, how quickly you can get into the City Centre by bus in peak times compared to a car.  

·         Members queried how First Cymru works out its price when tendering to the Council for open tender subsidised routes.  First Cymru confirmed they look at the cost of that particular service, based on the driver, the vehicle, number of driving hours, fuel and maintenance costs etc. 

·         Members queried how Cardiff Bus set their fares.  It was confirmed that it is done on a commercial basis.  They look at their competitor’s prices, and look at their own internal costs and come up with a price.  They have a number of competitors who tend to operate on the more profitable routes and Cardiff Bus compares its prices to them. 

·         Members raised the issue of air quality.  They were pleased to hear that First Cymru is committed to becoming a clean air operator by 2035 and to cease all diesel forms from 2025.  First Cymru stated that some electric vehicles, in other parts of Wales, had been funded by a Department of Transport fund for areas defined as clean air zones (including Cardiff).  However, there are not any of these areas within First Cymru’s operating area, which means they have not been able to bid for such vehicles.

·         Members stated that in some places, like Exeter, buses switch off engines when stopping at red traffic lights until lights go green.  They queried with First Cymru if this is something they have thought about and are prepared to introduce, as from an emissions point of view it would be a tremendous step in the right direction. 

·         Members asked First Cymru for examples of ticket incentives that they offer.  Members felt incentives should be available via other means not just via a mobile app.   First Cymru stated they are open minded to looking at ticketing offers. 

·         Members raised the issue of cross-ticketing and queried why tickets cannot be accepted by all operators.  First Cymru responded that this is high up the agenda for Welsh Government and Transport for Wales.  There are currently no clear systems that all operators use.  First Cymru believe this is something that will be introduced as part of bus reform.

·         Members asked First Cymru if they will consider doing circular routes in Swansea.  First Cymru responded saying they are keen to understand more about this and it would need to be discussed outside of the meeting. 

·         Members queried the difference in journey cost, for the same length of journey, in Cardiff and Swansea.  Informed this is difficult to answer as all areas offer different incentives. 

·         Members felt there are a number of areas where the bus services provided can be maximised, for example patronage.  They also felt that there is no joined up thinking between bus and train times and asked if the Authority can examine where services can be coordinated, for example, transport hubs and cross-ticketing for rail-bus.  First Cymru stated that this is a frustration of theirs and that they have worked with train companies to align services but then timetables have changed.  They added that where they had seen transport hubs introduced, for example Port Talbot it had not attracted the volume of people to board or alight the bus that they expected.  The Cabinet Member added that the Authority has received funding from the Welsh Government for feasibility studies to look at hubs in Pontarddulais and Gowerton to make it more accessible for buses to get down to the station. 

·         First Cymru added that Transport for Wales is committed to having this integrated travel system and First Cymru will do everything it can to work with them on this agenda going forward. Officers stated that integration is the cornerstone of what the metro is trying to achieve, to have bikes and walking routes etc at the hubs, and all these things will be progressed by the Metro.    

·         Cardiff Bus suggested to Members that if they really want to see a change to bus services in Swansea, they really need to encourage the Authority to work with First Cymru to move buses around the City as easily as possible and improve the infrastructure, as to grow patronage there is a need to increase reliability. 

 

Working Group Members then discussed progress and made the following conclusions and recommendations:

 

 

1.  We would like to give our thanks to all bus drivers and personnel who have carried on working through the pandemic carrying key workers to their jobs. They have played a vital role.

 

2. We wish to emphasise the importance of bus companies and public transport more generally contributing to carbon emission reduction.  We are expecting our bus companies to move quickly and radically away from fossil fuels.  We were told First Cymru would be a clean air operator by 2035.  Can they try and move quicker and deliver this by 2030, so they are making a contribution in line with Swansea Council’s commitment to being net zero by 2030.

 

3. We feel that there needs to be a regular bus services to all areas of Swansea.  This is particularly important to reduce isolation and start a shift away from car use to using public transport.

 

4. We recommend that regular meetings are held between Members and First Cymru to raise and discuss issues such as changes to routes, timetables, increasing patronage etc and would ask that this is arranged. 

 

5. If there is going to be a modal change, we feel elected Members need to be involved in discussions on how the Authority is going to do this.  We would like your assurance on this.

 

6. We feel it is very important for the Authority and bus companies to listen to people who currently do not use buses in Swansea, as well as people who do, to help shape current and future bus services.

 

7. We would like to see bus companies offering more incentives for regular travel and offering incentives in a number of forms not just via mobile apps.

 

8. We feel that there is no joining up between bus and rail times, and ask that the Authority examine where services can be co-ordinated.  We were pleased to hear that two feasibility studies are taking place to look at transport hubs in two areas of Swansea but a lot more needs to be done.

 

9. We wish to emphasise the importance of cross ticketing being introduced between bus operators and bus and rail for the convenience of the residents of Swansea and to increase patronage.  We would like assurance that the Authority is doing all it can to move the travel reform agenda forward with the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales as quickly as possible.

 

10. We agree with the suggestion by Cardiff Bus that the Authority and First Cymru work together to move buses around the City as easily as possible, to help improve reliability.  As there are only a few ways in and out of Swansea, congestion points are always going to be an issue.  We feel to help overcome this that bus lanes will need to be improved. 

 

11. We are concerned that a scrutiny committee produced a report around 2012/13 which went into many of the same problems and came up with the same conclusions as this Working Group but sadly no action was taken.  We hope that the Authority will now listen to our concerns and work towards achieving solutions.

 

12. We will be recommending to the Scrutiny Programme Committee that a follow up meeting of this Working Group is held in six months, to see what changes/improvements have been made and following it decide if the Working Group need to meet again six months after that.  We believe that it is vitally important that we see positive changes taking place to benefit Swansea residents. 

 

 

Following on from this meeting:

 

A letter will be written from the Convener of the Working Group to the Cabinet Member, summarising the discussion and outlining the Working Group’s thoughts and recommendations.